412. True Stories From a Soviet Spy | Jack Barsky | The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

Intro

In this episode of “The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast,” Jordan B. Peterson interviews Jack Barsky, a former KGB spy. Barsky shares his fascinating story of being recruited by the KGB while pursuing a degree in chemistry, his double life in the US, and his eventual work for the FBI.

Main Takeaways

Communist Indoctrination and Rationalization

• Barsky explains how communist thinking was deeply ingrained in East Germany from a young age through massive brainwashing and lack of free market of ideas.
• East Germans rationalized the higher standard of living in the West by believing that NATO countries were stealing wealth from the third world.

The Desire for Freedom and the Striving for Equality

• The desire to work for the freedom of the oppressed is a powerful motivator, as it addresses the longing in the human soul for suffering to be dispensed with.
• There is a moral striving to want to remediate poverty and suffering, and even prosperous people are still unhappy about poverty and suffering anywhere in the world.
• The assumption that anyone who is more talented or owns more does so as a consequence of injustice and oppression can lead to a situation where successful individuals are hated and persecuted with a good conscience.

The Shift from Poverty to Elitism

• The speaker’s upbringing in a poor community made the concept of poverty less tangible, and the shift to becoming a successful student led to a sense of elitism and a patronizing attitude towards those in need.
• The initial good intentions of the elite to help others can degrade into a less altruistic mindset, as the elite needs to maintain its status.

The Mindset of Intellectual Elites

• The speaker discusses the mindset of living better and making more money because they deserve it.
• The speaker reflects on their lack of hatred towards capitalists due to a theoretical understanding of exploitation.
• The discussion delves into the association between intellectual pride, utopian presumption, and communism.

The Pathway to Becoming a Spy

• The combination of propaganda and elite status influenced the decision to join the KGB.
• The speaker’s experience of being offered material luxury and the excitement of traveling to the West as a double agent by the KGB is a heavy offer, combining adventure, intellectual advantage, and status.

Life as a Spy

• The speaker’s gradual involvement with the KGB, meeting with a contact named Herman for six months before further pursuing the relationship.
• Herman becomes an important figure in the speaker’s life, providing mentorship and guidance due to the speaker’s lack of a father figure.
• The speaker’s revelation that despite working for the KGB, he never received formal training in psychology or understanding people, with the only resource being a book on building relationships by Dale Carnegie.

Living Undercover and Espionage

• The speaker recounts a pivotal moment in their life when they had to pass a test by making friends with people in an apartment building.
• The speaker’s ability to adapt and excel in challenging situations led to significant opportunities and experiences.
• The speaker spent two years in Moscow, working hard to acquire English without a strong accent.

Leaving the Spy Life and Finding Redemption

• Barsky’s resignation from the KGB came about due to personal reasons, including his relationship with his daughter.
• The speaker experienced an overwhelming feeling of unconditional love for a girl, which was a pivotal moment in his life.
• The power of unconditional love was a significant factor in the speaker’s decision-making process, overriding logical thinking and leading to a tremendous risk.

Life After Espionage

• Barsky started working as a coder and came to the attention of the FBI due to a betrayal by an archivist in the KGB, Vasily Mitrokin, who copied and shared KGB information.
• The FBI found Barsky due to his unique social security data and he successfully lived undercover in the US for at least 15 years, serving the KGB for 10 years.
• The speaker’s debriefing with the FBI led to a commendation for the lead agent from the FBI leadership.

Summary

Communist Indoctrination and Rationalization

Barsky shares his experience of growing up in East Germany and how communist thinking was deeply ingrained in society. Through massive brainwashing and lack of free market of ideas, East Germans rationalized the higher standard of living in the West by believing that NATO countries were stealing wealth from the third world.

The Desire for Freedom and the Striving for Equality

Barsky explains the powerful motivators behind the desire to work for the freedom of the oppressed and the moral striving to remediate poverty and suffering. He also discusses the assumption that successful individuals are hated and persecuted due to the belief that their success is a consequence of injustice and oppression.

The Shift from Poverty to Elitism

Barsky reflects on his personal journey from growing up in a poor community to becoming a successful student. He discusses the shift in mindset towards elitism and a patronizing attitude towards those in need. He also explores how the initial good intentions of the elite to help others can degrade into a less altruistic mindset as they strive to maintain their status.

The Mindset of Intellectual Elites

Barsky delves into the mindset of intellectual elites, discussing their desire to live better and make more money due to a sense of entitlement. He reflects on his lack of hatred towards capitalists and the association between intellectual pride, utopian presumption, and communism.

The Pathway to Becoming a Spy

Barsky shares his experience of being recruited by the KGB and the combination of propaganda and elite status that influenced his decision. He discusses the offer of material luxury and the excitement of traveling to the West as a double agent, highlighting the allure of adventure, intellectual advantage, and status.

Life as a Spy

Barsky discusses his gradual involvement with the KGB and the mentorship and guidance he received from his contact, Herman. He reveals that despite working for the KGB, he never received formal training in psychology or understanding people, relying solely on a book on building relationships by Dale Carnegie.

Living Undercover and Espionage

Barsky recounts his experiences as a spy, including a pivotal moment when he had to pass a test by making friends with people in an apartment building. He highlights his ability to adapt and excel in challenging situations, including spending two years in Moscow to acquire English without a strong accent.

Leaving the Spy Life and Finding Redemption

Barsky shares his personal journey of leaving the KGB due to personal reasons, including his relationship with his daughter. He discusses the overwhelming feeling of unconditional love for a girl that led to his decision, overriding logical thinking and taking a tremendous risk.

Life After Espionage

Barsky recounts his life after leaving the spy life, including working as a coder and catching the attention of the FBI due to a betrayal by an archivist in the KGB. He successfully lived undercover in the US for at least 15 years, serving the KGB for 10 years. His debriefing with the FBI led to a commendation for the lead agent from the FBI leadership.

Conclusion

Jack Barsky’s story of being a former KGB spy is a captivating tale of indoctrination, espionage, and personal transformation. His journey from communist East Germany to the US, his double life, and eventual redemption offer valuable insights into the mindset of intellectual elites, the allure of adventure and status, and the power of unconditional love. Barsky’s experiences shed light on the complex world of espionage and the challenges of maintaining one’s identity and values in the face of ideological pressures. His story serves as a reminder of the importance of seeking truth, embracing individuality, and avoiding the pitfalls of utopian ideologies.